Hello all! This is a new series that some over on the SDA2RC blog wanted to start and discuss.
Basically, a passage of relevant Scripture will be quoted and discussion will ensue as to what is meant in the particular passage. Once "universal" agreement has been reached concerning a particular passage of Scripture, we will then move on to another "Part" of the series with another passage of relevant Scripture.
Everyone is welcome to participate in this exchange. I will ask that anyone participating to please follow these short guidelines, as they will help insure that we all stay on track and remain focused:
1. All discussion will be regarding the Biblical covenants, and what they mean.
2. All discussion will center on the passage under discussion. Please no "jumping" to other passages of Scripture.
3. Once agreement has been reached regarding the passage under discussion, the thread will then be "closed", and we will all move on to the next "Part" in the series.
4. All quoting from commentaries/books must be short enough to fit within a single comment.
5. Everyone will keep their comments to one single comment only. No multi-part comments allowed from anyone. The reason for this is that short comments help to maintain focus better.
Any and all comments not adhering to these "rules" will be deleted by the moderator (me).
Covenants in Scripture Part 1
Genesis chapters 1-3 KJV
Chapter 1
1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Chapter 2
1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
18And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.
20And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Chapter 3
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
7And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
8And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
9And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
10And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
11And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
12And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
13And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.
14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
20And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.
21Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
22And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Wednesday, September 2, 2009
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47 comments:
I'll be the first to "kick" off this discussion.
If we accept the basic definition of covenant as an agreement between two or more parties, then it appears to me that the very first "covenant" mentioned in Scripture is Gen. 2:16-17. What does everyone think about this?
Sorry, David, I cannot agree with that. Not every commandment, promise and prophecy in the Bible classifies as a covenant. In the matter of Gen. 2:16, 17 God is making a pronouncement, He is not entering into an agreement. A covenant must be binding on both sides.
But isn't God commanding obedience concerning something, and Adam and Eve are consenting to His authority over them by obeying His command? Thus we have an "agreement" between two parties:
1. God commands
2. Adam and Eve agree to obey
Isn't this reminiscent of "All that the LORD hath spoken we will do" (Exo. 19:8)?
Yes David, God is issuing a command, but not to Adam and Eve. The command in the verses you reference are to Adam only. Eve had not yet been created.
So I agree with Lady Dragaon that this is not a covenant.
It is however the first command given to man by God. And so far up to this point, it is the only command. So far, I see no commands from the 10 commandments.
As you may recall, it was my vision for this discussion to focus on covenants and commands, in order to see if Adventist claims of the 10 commandments existing from creation can be supported with scripture. My assertion was that covenants, not the 10 commandments carry primacy in salvation history.
Also, thank you David for starting this discussion thread and laying out some basic ground rules. They are very good. I hope and pray that ant, Still, and other Adventists will participate in this. Here is great potential for focused discussion.
God bless all!!!
Let me see if I understand you correctly:
This is not a "covenant" because it was only between God and Adam?
Did I get that right?
If so, why does that not qualify as a covenant?
If not, then what did you mean?
Obviously, I need further clarification. Thank you for your patience!
PS: If anyone thinks that the "ground rules" need revising or additions to, please let me know.
No, this is not a covenant. And not because it is only between Adam. It is God's only command to Adam in order for Adam to enjoy eternal paradise with God. Now this command was not just to Adam, even though he was who God first gave it to in Gen. 2:16-17. It was also given to Eve after she was created as evidenced in Gen. 3:2-3.
The biggest reason as to why I do not see this as a covenant, is that it is not named a covenant by God. As we will see in the rest of this study, God calls a covenant, "a covenant".
Also, correct me if I am wrong, but it is my understanding that covenants occurred only where sin exists and death is imminent such as Noah; or, to restore a right relationship between two parties such as marriage between a man and woman, or between God and "man". The purpose of the covenants is to restore man back to his proper relationship with God which gives man life. I would love to hear other's thoughts on this!
God bless all!!!
a P.S. to my above comment. Marriage as a covenant - Malachi 2:14
I don't think I'm jumping ahead in the study since the marriage covenant was instituted at creation for man and woman. In fact the first and only pre-fall covenant.
God bless all!!!
Perhaps the definition of Covenant, as an agreement between too parties too loose?
I can make an agreement with my mate that we will meet at the pub, at a certain time. I can promise to do this, and he can promise the same, even if we sign a declaration saying this is what we indeed to do, I don't think this is a covenant.
Perhaps Lady Dragon could post her thoughts on Suzerain Covenants here for ease of reference?
Clement
I guess it depends by what we envision when we use the term "covenant". But we have to realize that a covenant before the Fall would be made differently that one afterward. After the Fall, covenants were often ratified with blood. It would be evidently not the case before sin.
If we take a covenant as an agreement, we can say that there was indeed one between Adam and God. God was not just making a pronouncement in Genesis 2:16,17. There is also the implicit acceptation of the terms by Adam (implicit because we don't see Adam say yes, but since Adam continued living after God's declarations, we can be sure he accepted them). So the agreement was the following (in my own terms): "the Earth is yours to subdue; you can eat of any fruits, plants..., except don't touch that tree over there. These are my terms. As long as you obey me, the garden is yours. If you disobey, you will be removed. Deal?" (we find the same kind of deal with the Promise Land. As long as Israel obeyed, it was their land. But when they disobeyed, they were removed from it by going into captivity or their dominion over the land was removed when they were dominated by other peoples like the Philistines for example). What would have happened if Adam had disagree at that moment? Do you think that God would have allowed him to live?
A note to Mike: the fact that Eve doesn't appear in the story yet doesn't mean that it is not a covenant. After all, when Israel entered in a covenant with God at Mt. Sinai, the future generations were not there yet but the covenant was still biding to them. Why? Because the next generations were hidden in that first generation that was at Mt. Sinai. In the same way, Eve was hidden in Adam (after all, she was created from him).
Good points Still!
God bless all!!!
David:
This is why in one of my posts, before we came over here to your blog, I discussed the Suzerain Covenant. Did you have an opportunity to read that?
The Suzerain, or lord, had absolute authority overy his subjects. In Genesis 2:16, 17 God is exercising that authority by issuing a command to Adam. That was God's right. No where in that passage do I see Adam agreeing to obey. It was simply understood that obedience would result.
The wonder of the Suzerain Covenant is that the lord despite having absolute authority willingly entered into a two sided agreement with his subjects.
Hello all!
While we can see many "agreements" throughout the Bible, I think Lady Dragon makes an excellent point between commands, of which obedience is expected, and of which disobedience leads to negative consequences; and covenants.
The nature of the covenant is different from commands or routine agreements between people. Covenants are entered into willingly by two parties who make a pledge to one another.
In the situation regarding God's command to Adam and Eve to not eat the forbidden fruit, I do not see any pledge made on the part of Adam or Eve.
We do have one thing going for us as we move on in this discussion, and that is that the Bible clearly calls a covenant, a "covenant". Where covenants are made in the Bible, The Bible calls them covenants.
Unless anyone has some scripture that calls God's command to not eat the forbidden fruit a covenant, the only covenant I see in these first two chapters is the marriage covenant between Adam and Eve. And there is scriptural evidence that indeed calls marriage a covenant...a pledge between two parties given by each party.
Agree? Disagree? Why?
Hi Mike,
Let me see if I understand you correctly:
You think we should only classify those particular instances in Scripture as a "covenant" only when the biblical text specifically designates them as such?
If that is indeed what you mean, then I can accept that. To do otherwise is merely to engage in speculation as to what is and is not a covenant. Your method provides us with a level of certainty by adhering strictly to what the text says, and which I find very reasonable.
So marriage is the only pre-fall covenant in all of Scripture? What does everyone else think about that?
Blessings!
I am not absolutely sure that you can call marriage a covenant. Unless you mean between the husband and governing male of the bride's family. Marriage is a sacrament, and today it is a covenant. But even in Eden since there were no other possibilities, was it a covenant, or a marriage of convenience since there was only the two of them?
"13And this have ye done again, covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand.
14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth. " Malachi 2:13-15.
It does appear that marriage is considered a covenant, at least according to Malachi.
Malachi does refer to marriage as a covenant, he does not say who the covenant is between. He says "the marriage of thy covenant" so the husband is part of the covenant, but since women could not enter into contracts it is even money that she was not part of the covenant - my money is on her father as being the other participant in the covenant.
It is also interesting that to my knowledge, this text in Malachi is the only time in the Bible where marriage is referred to as a covenant.
For the purpose of our discussion of covenant, the Hebrew and Greek definitions of covenant might be useful.
Covenant – Hebrew beriyth (from the root bara to eat, consume) a covenant so called from the idea of cutting, since it was the custom in making solemn covnants to pass between the divided parts of victims (see the root bara [and Gen. 15:9]) [But the idea suggested by Lee (Heb. Lex. h.v.) deserves attention, viz. That beriyth is strictly nothing more than an eating together, since among Orientals, to eat together is almost the same as to make a covenant of friendship.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1285&t=KJV#
Covenant – Greek diatheke 1) to arrange, dispose of, one's own affairs; 2) to make a covenant, enter into a covenant, with one.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/Lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G1303&t=KJV
Lady Dragon,
You made some interesting points here. However, there are some consequences if we say that the covenant of marriage is not made with the wife because it would mean that there would be no obligations for the wife. But we know that there are obligations. So somehow, the wife has to be included.
Still:
Subjects have obligation to their lord whether they are in a covenant or not. If the man had a pack of hunting hounds, those hounds were his property, they were not part of a covenant, but they owed him obedience. So it was with Old Testament wives.
But let us not get too far away from the subject which I perceive to be covenants between God and man.
Marsha
Lady Dragon wrote:
Subjects have obligation to their lord whether they are in a covenant or not. If the man had a pack of hunting hounds, those hounds were his property, they were not part of a covenant, but they owed him obedience.
This is good point (though the relationship between Abraham and Sarah shows that she was not considered a property by Abraham. But she did call him her lord).
Hello all! There have been very good points raised regarding covenants and the obigations of those covenants upon each party in the covenants. Specifically in our discussion of the original covenant of marriage, there has been much discussion of obedience of the parties, one party as property of or subject to the other party, etc.
But I think we are missing the obvious here as we discuss covenants created in the pre-fall period of mankind. I think Still makes an excellent point that there are differences between pre-fall covenants and post-fall covenants. But what is the one common thread among all the covenants that God made with man, both before and after the fall of man? It would be reveal God's indescribable love for His created beings, men and women. That love of God which was the foundational reason as to why God created this world and humans in the first place, and that indescribable love that redeems fallen mankind. As one author pointed out, God's covenants are more about the Family Room than the Court Room!
What was God's reason for creating this world, and for creating man and woman in His image? Was it not so that man and woman could grow in God's image throughout eternity as an ever growing family with God as the Father? Along with the command to not eat from that one tree were the commands to Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply, and to tend to and keep the Garden?
Man and woman reflect God's image, which is love, by participating in God's creative process. Angels are spirit beings and could not have children, the animals that God created could produce offspring yet they did not have God's spirit. Only man and woman were created and given God's Spirit along with the capabilty to create life in their holy union of marriage.
And marriage before the fall was not about who was superior to, or property of, the other. No, they were egual in love as a family...as part of God's family with God as their loving Father. That is why Eve was created from Adam's side, not his head and not his foot. It was not until after the fall, and where sin is present, that one became dominant over the other.
So I see marriage, before the fall, as a covenant between Adam and Eve, that would not only reflect, but participate in the larger covenant of family between God and mankind, which was God's purpose for creating this world and us...and that purpose was the eternal giving of His love to His creatures..His family. The same eternal love that flowed between the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit which had no beginning and has no end.
Two covenants before the fall:
1. The covenant of family love between God and His children whom He created...Adam and Eve. and;
2. The covenant of family love between men and women, the children of our first human parents Adam and Eve, that reflect and particpate in and fulfill the image of God in which we were created. Family love of two becoming one in marriage.
After the fall, covenants were made between God and fallen mankind to restore the love relationship between God and mankind and mankind with all its memebers. And as we will see, the covenants that come after the fall have an ever expanding nature that include more and more people. From the two, Adam and Eve until the New and Everlasting covenant made by Jesus which includes all of mankind..
But first let's see if we can settle on the pre-fall covenants?
Whatcha all think?
God bless all!!!
Sounds good to me, Mike.
Using the first three chapters of Genesis as our text, I find no recorded pre-fall covenants. I am not saying that there were none, only that they cannot be found in Scripture. Of course, that doesn't pose the problem for me that it may pose for our SDA participants.
The text doesn't explicitely say this is a covenant but I agree with Mike.
Notice what God is giving: He blesses them, to multiply and be fruitful, to replenisth and subdue the earth, to have dominion over everything he created, and God rested (the Sabbath) when everything was very good.
There were the following requirements in the garden of Eden, "to dress it and to keep it". The only commandment is to not eat of the tree or they will die. Ch. 2:17
I think this was agreed because because of Eve's response in Ch. 3:2-3. If it wasn't for the serpant pestering she would not have ate from the tree, neither would Adam.
Another note: Mark 10:2-16, describes this as a marriage also.
Since we are currently considering Genesis chapters 1-3 at the moment, I would like to take this opportunity to point something out that others may not know. Now this is primarily for the Adventist's benefit, and if you already know this, then please ignore it:
At the end of each day of creation week are the words, "And there was evening and morning, the (#) day". This was obviously done to indicate that each creation day existed in time. However, when it comes to the seventh "day" it does not include this phrase. Now we may assume that the seventh "day" exists in time just as the other six days apparently do, and perhaps Moses (who is attributed to writing this) just forgot somehow to include the distinctive phrase for the seventh "day". However, if one accepts this writing as being inspired by the Spirit, then perhaps there is actually a reason as to why it was written in this way.
As an Adventist, I always assumed that the seventh "day" had the distinctive phrase that the other six days possessed. It was quite an eye opener when I found out that it did not! Furthermore, when I came out of Adventism and began reading the Ante-Nicene Fathers heavily, I found that the early Christians knew about this little tid bit, and even had an interpretation of it ready to go. I was fascinated to say the least!
Sorry if this was off the current topic of the covenants. Since we were here I couldn't help but bring it up.
Blessings all!
Armando said:created, and God rested (the Sabbath) when everything was very good.
Careful! God took Gods rest, it was not called sabbath until as rest was assigned to the Hebrews in Ex 17:25 Manna
Nature.B
Hi David,that tid bit was interesting, never picked up on that before.Now I am curious of the early Church Fathers interpretation. Give it to me on the other side that we not pull this blog off rail. You made a little side note ,I did too; then the blog stopped for a day.Whats up with that?
Sorry I will not side note again.
Nature.B
Hi Nature B,
I don't believe that it was either yours or my "side note" that caused the blog to stop for a day. This blog just isn't as active as the other one.
Hello all! The discussion about the sabbath at the end of creation week is not a side discussion, but very important especially here in this discussion of covenants between God and man. I thank Armando and David for the points they make.
What did God establish when He created the heavens and the earth and all that is in it?
What was Moses trying to convey to the Hebrews for their day, by writing the creation story under the inspiration of God?
I'm going to say that in both cases, Moses was teaching the Hebrews (and now all of the world) about God's love and plan before the fall and after the fall. And that love and plan involves covenants.
If you look at the language used in Genesis chapter 1 as God creates the world and completes His creation, it is echoed by Moses throughout the building of the first temple in Ex. 36-40. Creating/building, completing, pronouncements of good work, and blessing and sanctifying, etc.
Moses documents the building of the temple after the exodus from Egypt as the place where man can meet with God. Moses documents the creation story as the building of this world as the place where man would not only meet with God, but live with Him daily.
In the beginning before the fall, the earth was God's temple where man's work was also man's worship of God. Creation was about man's relationship with God as His children in His family in pure love, and man and woman in relationship with each other sharing in and reflecting God's image in the covenant of marriage by sharing in divine love and participating in the creation of life...which enlarged each human family as well as God's family.
Moses left out the evening and morning designation on the seventh day, because all of God's creation was good, and blessed and santified by God. Each day thereafter involved the work of mankind which was also the worship of God in relationship with Him and in His presence in this new temple...The Earth. And the sign of the sabbath at the end of Chapter 1 is a beautiful transition from the temple of the created world to the temple of the garden described in chapter 2.
The temple of the garden was lost after the fall. Yet temples continue to arise again throughout salvation history, and particulary in association with later covenants.
There is pattern and structure associated with covenants that maintains over each covenant as well, which we'll talk about when we get to each of the future covenants. That pattern has the elements of 1. Covenant; 2. Covenant Mediator; 3. Mediator role; and 4. Covenant sign.
In the first two chapter of Genesis, I think the pattern is fulfilled as follows:
1. Covenant = Marriage
2. Mediator = Adam
3. Role = Husband
4. Sign = Sabbath
To save space, I think that what I wrote above explains the 4 points above, but I realize that I may not communicate my thoughts so clearly.
So let me know what you think and let's continue to discuss. This is a well ordered thread, and I commend everyone for staying on topic and their Christian civility!
God bless all!!!
Hi Mike,
I genuinely enjoyed reading your remarks about the "earth temple/garden temple", and what not. You truly have a way of painting a beautiful picture in all that you said. It almost came across as something inspired. No joke!
However, I do have to take issue with what you said at the end of it.
First of all, should we even consider the "marriage" in chapter 2 a covenant, and therefore a "pre-fall" covenant, based only on Malachi? How is Eve being presented to Adam a "covenant"? If it really is a covenant, then what does this do to our concept of a covenant being either an agreement or contract between two or more parties, or what the Lady Dragon said about a "suzerain" covenant being between a lord and his servants? Adam and Eve's union does not seem to fit either of these concepts.
Second, how can you say that the Sabbath is the "sign" of the marriage "covenant" between Adam and Eve when the Bible does not say so? In fact, the Bible indicates that the Sabbath was a "sign" only between Israel and God (cf. Exo.31:12-15). Scripture also indicates that God "made known" the Sabbath only to Israel (cf. Neh.9). Both the historic Jewish and Christian understanding is that the Sabbath was not known prior to Moses. Therefore, how can it be considered the sign of Adam and Eve's marriage? What would that even mean?
Sorry about all of the questions. I'm just trying to understand where you are coming from.
Blessings to you my friend!
David:
Thank you for asking your questions. Nothing in the first three chapters of Genesis suggest that Adam and Eve's marriage was a covenant, nor that the Sabbath had any covenantial meaning at that time. nor that there were any pre-fall covenants.
Here is another question, what purpose would a pre-fall God-Man covenant have?
Hi David! First let me say that those ideas might be inspired...but I am not the one who received the inspiration. I would love nothing more than to be a scholar whom people flocked to...lol...but all I am is a regular guy who likes to read the works of scholars...and then I draw honest conclusions and try to present my understanding within the context of the Bible and the authority of The Church. That's how I came to join the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and then how I came to join the Catholic Church. You would probably be surprised to find these ideas presented throughout the history of the Church by "real scholars".:-) but they do it much better than I do.
To answer your questions...
First: I do not use Malachi as a basis of proof that marriage, in chapter 2 or throughout history, is a covenant. And while I think our discussions to define covenants as agreements and contracts, with The Lady Dragon's example of suzerain covenants, has been extremely helpful and informative, I think there is more involved in covenants which God makes with mankind...namely His eternal and redemptive love. And not only is God's love the basis of the covenants He makes with us, but the covenants He makes with us are the greatest real true revelations of His love for us. And I think this becomes clearer and clearer with each covenant God enters into with mankind.
Adam and Eve's marriage may not fit our understanding of two party agreements and contracts and lord and subject relationships...but it was the perfect reality of "man" created in God's image. It was the perfect flow of love between two people (just as God's love flowed perfectly in the Trinity), and the result of this perfect love led to the union, UNITY, of Adam and Eve, in which their love, in its complete fulfillment, created new life. And the creations of their love were meant to share in this God given love and His image creating more new life as they were fruitful and multiplied, ever increasing the size of the family of God and the spread of God's love. A covenant, between two people to create a family in God's image, which is just what God did in creating this world and man and woman. God created a family in which His love was supreme among all created beings. Creation was God's first covenant with man for a total and complete sharing in God's love. Marriage is a covenant between man and woman for the complete and creative sharing of God's love...the image of God.
In the garden, the covenant was between a man and a woman, two who become one in the covenant of marriage. As we move through the rest of the covenants in the Bible after the fall, we see that each covenant encompasses a broader range of people until the new and everlasting covenant encompasses all mankind.
Those are my thoughts on why Adam and Eve's marriage was a covenant. It was made with eternity in mind, and had there been no fall, that covenant would have been fulfilled by the multitudes of humans created from that covenant for all eternity. A family of God made up of all the families of man, to work in the garden in the presence of God which was their day to day worship in that perfect world. That plan came to an end, but God in His love continued to share and show His origianl love and His redemptive love in all the covenants He institued after the fall.
I guess my understanding of Adam and Eve being in this covenant of love that is the image of God, changes, at least for me, our understanding of covenants in this discussion. But always remember that God's love for mankind is at the core of all His covenants.
David please forgive me if I have not answered your first question clearly, and please feel free to keep asking until I do. This is a great study and I don't do it justice I'm sure...so hang in there with me!
Clement...Armando...HELP!!! :-)
(cont'd)
(cont'd 2)
Second: I say that the sabbath is the sign of the covenant of marriage, because it comes on the seventh day after God performs His climatic act of the creation week in chapter 1..the creation of man and woman in the image of God. And man being created in the image of God is not limited to the creative power of marriage, but also in that God gave to man dominion over ALL that He had just created.
On the sixth day God looked at all He had created that week and "found it very good." And He..GOD...rested on the seventh day and blessed it and made it holy because on it He rested from all the work He had done in creation.
Why is it the sign of the marriage covenant in creation? Simply, because the sabbath is God's rest after He completed His work of creation. It is God's rest, being with God for eternity in His perfect, blessed, and holy creation, in which Adam and Eve enter into as a new family in God's ever growing family. Thus the reason why Moses did not add the phrase morning and evening to the seventh day.
Remember, the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath. The sabbath was not the crowning event of the creation story; man and woman created in the image of God and given dominion over all creation was. The sabbath, which at that time was not a weekly occurence designated by evening and morning...that designation was to come later. No, the sabbath at creation was God's rest in which mankind would be contained forever..the perfect, blessed, and holy creation.
Now, let's accept that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible. Moses was not there at creation, but Moses did enter into a covenant with God where He received The Law for the Hebrews who had been freed from slavery in Egypt by God and promised a new land in which to live flowing with milk and honey where they would be God's chosen people. Part of the law which Moses received in that covenant was the 10 commandments, with the sabbath commandment. Here is the first time in the Bible where man was now commanded to rest and keep holy the sabbath. Moses wrote the creation story as inspried by God, to help teach the Hebrews about God's original plan, how that plan was changed by the fall, and how a new plan was put in place (Genesis chapter 3)...and where they fit into that plan...the covenant into which they agreed to enter with God.
At creation, God rested after a perfect creation and man lived in God's rest which was His perfect creation.
At the time of deliverance from Egypt, man was commanded to rest on the sabbath once a week, on the seventh day, as part of God's love and instruction in salvation.
At the time of the resurrection, the New and Everlasting Covenant, Paul writes that man is once again brought back into God's rest, which is life eternal with God.
Think about this which we say often in prayer and worship: As it was in the beginning, is now, and will be forever. Amen. This is because of Jesus' life death and resurrection, His new and everlasting covenant, which is God's love that restores a family.
Again David, please make me clarify what I have most likely muddied. Or does any of this answer any of your two questions?
God bless all!!!
Hi Mike,
I appreciate your articulations and thoughts upon the matter. I really liked your take on the seventh "day" as referring to living with God forever in His perfect creation.
However, it's just not clicking for me. I guess I need more Scripture to back all of this up before I can give my okay to move on.
Mike, I do believe! Help my unbelief! :~)
Blessings to you my brother!
Mike again! Genesis 2:3 God blessed the seventh day and made it Holy, Because on that day he rested from all the work he had done in his creation.That was Gods rest.
later God assigned a rest to the Hebrews Ex 17:26 sabbath, for solving the Manna problem.
Then later Ex 20:8 God said Remember the sabbath(manna)keep it Holy.
I am still in agreement with Mike here.
It might help to try to differentiate between a contract and a covenant.
I sign a contract when I subscribe to cable TV. As soon as a new company runs a promotional ad that gives me more for less, I quickly sign up with them and leave the old one behind.
I come into a covenant with God, trusting in Him and I fall in love with His love for us. He lays down everything for me. We are the lost sheep he rejoices in finding, the prodigal son that returns and received with a feast. We become Christians because we seek salvation and trust his promise of eternal life.
There is Eucharistic Prayer that says “You formed man in your own likeness and set him over the whole world to serve you, his creator, and to rule over all creatures. Even when he disobeyed you and lost your friendship, you did not abandon him to the power of death, but helped all men to seek and find you. Again and again you offered a covenant to man, and through the prophets taught him to hope for salvation. Father, you so loved the world that in the fullness of time you sent your only Son to be our Savior.”
This is the difference in Gods covenant of love vs. a contract. That’s how I understand it and how I understand God intended for Marriage to be a loving covenant, and oath to give oneself for another.
The Marriage Covenant is not just between man and woman but also between God and humanity. (read Ephesians 5: 21-32).
Hi everyone,
I came across a definition of Covenant that might be useful, see what you think:
A Contract deals with an exchange of goods / property / services / money
A covenant deals with an exchange of persons.
So in a covenant, one party says to the other "I will be your God, and you will be my people" or like marriage, "All that I am, I give to you".
It is also the difference between slaves and sons. There is a contract between slave and master, but a covenant makes the slave a son. (I think this will be important in the New Covenant but let's not get ahead of ourselves!)
Covenant has something of family about it. We are created in the image and likeness of God Gen 1:26. The next time we here this phrase is Gen 5:3
"When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth."
Also, Luke 3:38, at the end of the genealogy tells us, "...the son of Adam, the son of God"
Thus in the beginning, God did not just create us a slaves, but as a part of his family. In his image: male and female he created them.
Gen 1:27 is a fascinating verse:
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
We were created in the image of the Holy Trinity (a family, Father, Son and the product of their love, the Holy Spirit). Thus, Adam and Eve were created a holy family, Husband, wife and the product of their love, offspring! Be fruitful and multiply!
The final point I would like to make at this juncture is that the whole creation story in its structure points towards a covenant. The Hebrew "to swear a covenant" is literally built upon the Hebrew term "to seven oneself." Thus the seven days of creation give us a sign of the covenant which God establishes with Adam and Eve, as family. Crucially, the seventh day, the sabbath (which has no end - as Dave and Mike have pointed out) is a sign of this covenant, in that it is the time when God enjoys the relationship he has established with Adam and Eve. Not on a weekly basis, but forever, or least that was the plan right up until the fall.
What Y'all think?
Clement
Hi Clement,
I do like yours and Mike's and Armando's articulations. However, I feel as though we are being perhaps too "loose" with the Bible when it comes to this issue of covenants. What I mean is that you guys seem to be constructing a concept of covenant that I do not necessarily see explicitly given in Scripture. Perhaps the fault is mine in this, as it does seem that the three of you are in agreement with your thoughts. Please bear wth me in this.
I was thinking that perhaps we could go to another passage of Scripture that explicitly mentions a "covenant" being made and analyze that. At least we would have actual biblical information to work off of when trying to hash out what exactly a covenant is.
At least, those are my thoughts.
Blessings everyone!
David:
I also oppose a loose interpretation of covenant. We need to move on through the Scripture. We have not proven that there is any pre-fall covenant, only conjectured and romanticized the possibility.
Here again is the Hebrew definition of covenant:
Covenant – Hebrew beriyth (from the root bara to eat, consume) a covenant so called from the idea of cutting, since it was the custom in making solemn covnants to pass between the divided parts of victims (see the root bara [and Gen. 15:9]) [But the idea suggested by Lee (Heb. Lex. h.v.) deserves attention, viz. That beriyth is strictly nothing more than an eating together, since among Orientals, to eat together is almost the same as to make a covenant of friendship.
This is reminescent of Abraham dividing the carcasses of birds and animals and passing between them when God came and made covenant with him.
Perhaps if we move further through Scripture we will find more concrete definitions of covenant.
I certainly agree with you Lady Dragon. What does everyone else think about moving on? Perhaps after we examine a passage that is explicitly a covenant between God and man, then maybe we can come back to Gen.1-3 to see if there is anything that would qualify as a "covenant".
Blessings!
Clement,
On a side note, you said that the Holy Spirit is the product of the Father and Son's love. I disagree, and I believe the understanding of the Church disagrees with that as well. The Holy Spirit has His divine and eternal origin from the Father alone, just like the Son. God the Father is the Great Source and Originator of the Trinity. That is why He is referred to in the Creed as, "...one God, the Father almighty...".
Blessings to you my friend!
David you are right, I was loose in my definition of the trinity their!
Thank you.
I think maybe we should move on.
Where to next?
Clement
David,
I think that a topic like this is hugely difficult (though ultimately very rewarding) because many scholars have worked for many years on the idea of covenantal salvation. Perhaps Mike and myself and others are bringing some of the fruits of this work to this discussion without fully explaining exactly where it has all come from.
I think that perhaps moving on to Noah is good plan, where I think there will be a more obvious covenant, we shall see!
Clement
Hello all!
I agree that we are ready to move on to the first named covenant which is that between God and Noah. But first I just want to leave a few thoughts that we may revisist down the road.
First, to answer Marsha's question regarding the purpose of a pre-fall covenant. I think it is to bring man, in this case Adam and Eve, into the relationship of love, which if violated results in curses; but more importantly to let mankind know that God keeps His word and His promises to us. When in the marriage "covenant", Adam and Eve disobeyed God, that disobedience resulted in the curses found in Gen. chapter 3, but also God's promise of redemption in the same chapter.
We can leave each of our positions here and move forward, but let's keep in mind that God's covenants made with man are more than just agreements and contracts. They involve promises and oaths of commitment and giving of self to the other party in the covenant. For example, prostitution is a contract, and agreement; but marriage is a covenant.
Second, I just want to make a few points regarding the sabbath, the seventh day in the creation story as being the sign of that first covenant (realizing that we are not all in agreement that a covenant exists before the fall).
Perhaps it is because of our Adventist background, that even though we see the "sabbath" (i.e., God's Rest) in Genesis as eternity with God, we are still viewing this sabbath in Genesis as a literal day. I do not believe this as stated above and that is the inspired reason as to why the author of Genesis left off the "evening and morning" designation.
But this creation "sabbath" which is God's Rest is very important to understand in its creation story context.
A sabbath day from evening to evening on the 7th day was indeed instituted when the Law was given to Moses and the freed Hebrew slaves entered into a covenant with God. But this is not the sabbath of the creation story. This is a smaller reminder of that origianl sabbath. In a sense the sabbath of the 10 commandments is a type and shadow that points backward in time to the anti-type and real Sabbath which is God's Rest in which newly created man entered forever before sin entered the world.
(Cont'd)
cont'd 2)
Man has two aspects to his created being. One that is physcial from the clay from which God formed him, and the other being the Spirit of God which God breathed into him. Pre-fall, man's physical and spiritual aspects were in perfect communion with God, so much so that his work in the garden each day was worshipful devotion of and sharing life with God. After the fall and the covenantal curses kick in, man had to work and toil in sweat and thorns. The perfect mix of physical and spiritual was broken. God gave man a weekly sabbath to remember what His intention and purpose was for mankind before the fall. This weekly sabbath was needed, as the commandment states, for rest of his physical weariness and also for spiritual refreshment. This weekly sabbath law was kept and fulfilled by Jesus. After Jesus' death and resurrection, Paul teaches that we have been restored to God's rest, which is TODAY. We are restored, because of Jesus, to God's original sabbath rest. We will most likely go deeper into this when we discuss the New and Everlasting Covenant, but please keep in mind that the original sabbath-God's rest is daily and eternal; and the weekly sabbath, which is our rest from the toils of the fall curses, is a reminder of that original rest, and is one day a week; and that God's rest to which Jesus restores us is the original sabbath-God's rest for eternity.
Keep the origianl sabbath-God's rest in mind when we proceed and read those texts which call the sabbath an everlasting sign that God is our God and we are His people.
And that is why I believe the sabbath is the sign of the first covenant of marriage between Adam and Eve. I know we disagree and I am not asserting what I say here as the final word...just a few of my understandings which we may clarify one way or the other as we proceed.
So David, that is all I have to say here in this first installment of the covenant discussion. I will leave it up to you as to how you want to move forward to the next, or the first, covenant mentioned in the Bible, which I believe is with Noah.
God bless all!!!
Hi Mike,
Thank you for your thoughts. Your remarks about the creation sabbath of God are profound to say the least! I will certainly keep them in mind as we proceed.
I would like to say that I have never considered your words as the "final word" in this or any other discussion. From what I have seen, you have consistently managed, over the past 6 months that I have gotten to know you through your various comments on here and on the other blog, the deep sense of civility and humility that you possess. I have never seen you utter an insincere word at all. I, on the other hand, have had quite a few times where I have not responded in the kindest or most charitable way. Still and ant are perfect witnesses for this, and I profusely apologize for that. I have been sarcastic, demeaning, and down right mean in some of my comments with others, especially those two. I am sickened with myself because of it. But with God's grace I will learn to do better from now on.
You really are an inspiration for me Mike, and I deeply appreciate it!
On another note, today is Sept. 11, and I pray that God bless and give His abundant grace to all those who lost loved ones on this day 8 years ago. Their grief has not ended, because they are still missing the ones they love. Therefore our remembrance should not end on their behalf.
When I get home I will see about moving this discussion forward. Until then, may God's blessings be upon everyone!
Hello all! Ok, as you know, I have such a hard time keeping my mouth shut, and I promise this will be my last post in Part 1...but I just have to say two things.
One to Marsha: I missed the obvious this whole time regarding the marriage covenant.
In the beginning God created man and woman in His image as fulfilled in marriage.
Man's first encounter in blessing and relationship with God on this earth was in the union of marriage between the groom Adam and his bride Eve.
Man's last encounter in blessing and relationship with God on this earth is also in the union of marriage...this time between the groom Jesus Christ and His bride The Church!
Coincidence? I think not!;-)
The other to David: Since you and I are founding members, it would appear, of the MAKA (email me if you can't figure that out:-), I would like to say that I have learned quite a bit from your essays and posts over the past months, for which I am truly thankful to you.
In fact, it is my belief and hope that you and Hugo will be instrumental in the re-unification of The Church/East-West. And one day my great grandkids will be able to tell all their friends that their great-pappy Mike was friends with Saint David and Saint Hugo!
At least that is my prayer!
Thanks for your thoughts on 9-11 and if you get a chance, check out what Teresa Beem wrote on her blog about it...it was truely beautiful...talk about inspired writing!
God bless all!!!
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