This is a continuation of the ongoing discussion of covenants in the Bible. If you have not already read the first post and its subsequent comments, I suggest that you do so now as this will give the adequate context to know where we currently are in our discussion.
Basically, a passage of relevant Scripture will be quoted and discussion will ensue as to what is meant in the particular passage. Once "universal" agreement has been reached concerning a particular passage of Scripture, we will then move on to another "Part" of the series with another passage of relevant Scripture.
Everyone is welcome to participate in this exchange. I will ask that anyone participating to please follow these short guidelines, as they will help insure that we all stay on track and remain focused:
1. All discussion will be regarding the Biblical covenants, and what they mean.
2. All discussion will center on the passage under discussion. Please no "jumping" to other passages of Scripture.
3. Once agreement has been reached regarding the passage under discussion, the thread will then be "closed", and we will all move on to the next "Part" in the series.
4. All quoting from commentaries/books must be short enough to fit within a single comment.
5. Everyone will keep their comments to one single comment only. No multi-part comments allowed from anyone. The reason for this is that short comments help to maintain focus better.
Any and all comments not adhering to these "rules" will be deleted by the moderator (me).
Covenants in Scripture Part 2
Genesis chapters 6 & 9 KJV
Chapter 6
1And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
7And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
8But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
9These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
10And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
11The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.
12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.
13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
14Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
15And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits.
16A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.
17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.
19And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.
20Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
21And take thou unto thee of all food that is eaten, and thou shalt gather it to thee; and it shall be for food for thee, and for them.
22Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.
Chapter 9
1And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.
2And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
5And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
6Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
7And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.
8And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11And I will establish my covenant with you, neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.
12And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
13I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth.
14And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud:
15And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.
16And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.
17And God said unto Noah, This is the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth.
18And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.
19These are the three sons of Noah: and of them was the whole earth overspread.
20And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
21And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
24And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
25And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
28And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
Friday, September 11, 2009
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14 comments:
Folks, Noah had no circumcision nor sabbath.
Nature.B
Hi Nature B,
Where is everyone?? The first part of this covenant discussion was much more active than this. And there wasn't even a covenant explicitly mentioned in Gen 1-3! Now we get to a passage that actually uses the word "covenant", and it gets all quiet around here??
Oh well, I agree with you NB, Noah did not observe a Sabbath or circumcision, and neither did Adam for that matter. At least the Bible doesn't say they did. And wasn't that exactly Tertullian's point in the quote you provided on the other blog?
Anyways, gotta run. I'm starting to hear crickets!
Blessings to whoever might be out there.
Hello all,
I apologize for my silence here this week, but it has been very busy and I do not want to rush my posts on this discussion. But David, you don't have to repeat yourself to fill in space...LOL...it will fill up soon!:-)
I would just like to begin with God's commands to Noah. Part of what I want to discuss and reveal during this dicussion is the lack of the sabbath command from God to mankind for such a long time into the story of salvation. Part of this is to give an opportunity to the Adventists who have claimed that the sabbath has been kept by mankind from the creation.
So far we are how many years or generations from the beginning up to Noah? No one has provided any Biblical support for the Adventist view regarding the sabbath up to this point in Bible time. If it is there please feel free to provide it.
Up to this point however the only support for that belief is not the Bible, but the writings of Ellen Gould White and her story in her book "Patriarchs and Prophets". If I missed some scripture up to this point in time, please direct me to it.
Here are the commands from God to Noah, that I can find in the scriptures as God makes His covenant with Noah and Noah's extended family...please feel free to concur, add to, or delete from what you consider or see as commands at this point in time:
Genesis 6:13-22
Genesis 7:1-5
Genesis 8:14-20
Genesis 9:1-7
God bless all!!!
I have also yet to find mention of the Sabbath being practiced in Gen; I could be wrong about it. But I think this helps shed light, once again, on the amount of mental gymnastics one must perform with the Bible in order to continue being an Adventist.
For example, "You don't have to keep the Sabbath to be saved, but it is like a litmus test proving that you are saved." This is really saying the exact same thing as if one does not keep the Sabbath then they are not saved.
This is the type of crazy thinking I was a part of for ten years. The kind of thinking that leads you to believe that it all makes perfect sense, exactly because none of it makes any sense.
Dave, I'm glad you're running such a blog that exposes the truths about the Adventist church. I've learned quite a bit from you and you've been a great friend. I apologize for not contacting you sooner and for digressing off topic "covenants and scripture". But next time I drop by I will comment on a topic. I'll try and give you a call this weekend.
Hope all is well.
The covenant we see here is unique in that it is not only made with man, but with ALL living creatures. God promises never to kill everybody on earth with water ever again, and in turn . . .
Noah and his descendents would:
a) be fruitful and multiply
b) terrorize creation
c) keep kosher, and
d) judge murder as a capital crime.
I accept this as a covenant because God says "9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10And with every living creature that is with you," Otherwise, I find it very difficult to see in chapter 9 the necessary mutual obligations of a covenant.
Hello everyone! This is the first covenant in the Bible called a covenant. And this is very similar to the promises made by God to Adam and Eve after the fall. After sin entered the world Adam and Eve were given the promise that emnity would be put between the woman and the serpant, between her seed and the serpent, and that she and her seed would crush the serpant.
From the time of Adam to the time of Noah, sin wrecked havoc and mankind fell deeper and deeper into degradation. God decided to destroy the world, except for Noah and his sons and all their wives.
The language and commands from God to Noah is very similar to those given to Adam and Eve, and the creation story...such as be fruitful and multiply as they come out of the water covering the earth as in the beginning. It is very similar to the creation story.
Once again we see God's promise of salvation to mankind in the midst of sin. This salvific covenant extends to an entire extended family. Here are the 4 aspects of this covenant following the pattern presented in the first part of this discussion.
1. Covenant Mediator = Noah
2. Mediator Role = Father
3. Covenant Form = Household/Extended Family
4. Covenant Sign = Rainbow
There are certainly deeper issues to discuss, but I think this is all I have to say right now regarding this covenant. I welcome any comments or questions, but if everyone is ready to move on to the next covenant, I believe I am too. I think the next covenat we find in the Bible is that made with Abraham.
God bless all!!!
I'm curious, has the discussion completed on this topic? If so, I believe I have failed to grasp the point of the exercise.
Blessings!
Hi David!
I don't think the discussion on the topic is completed. Perhaps the discussion here on the covenant between God and Noah is completed (but not exhausted).
Unless anyone else has anything to add on Noah, I suggest we move on to the next covenant which I believe is with Abraham.
I stand by my assertion that the sabbath (or any sabbath for that matter) given to man up to this point in time is not in the Bible.
I had hoped to hear from any Adventist who asserts that it is, along with scripture to support that view. Only Mrs. White's story stands by this.
Do any Adventists still believe this, or has this belief gone by the way side?
Anyway David, unless there is a covenant between the time of Noah and the time of Abraham, I say let's move on to Abraham and look at that covenant.
God bless all!!!
Hi Mike,
Sure, we can go on to the "Abrahamic" covenant, but I'm concerned that there may not be any participants. Oh well, I guess that shouldn't stop me. It would be nice to see some Adventists address the challenges you raise ;)
Blessings to you brother
Hi David,
We most likely won't get much, if any participation in this discussion, paritcularly by Adventits.
When the covenants between God and man are examined, this is where the Adventist "story" cannot hold water in light of the scriptures...a point I have tried to make for almost two years now.
The important covenants to examine in this respect are the Old (under the mediation of Moses) and the New (under the mediation of Jesus Christ). But it is important to examine all the covenants (with Abraham and David as the mediators of those covenants) to see specifically what the signs, or seals, of those covenants are.
It is surprising (at least it was to me when I was an Adventist) that the sabbath does not play the role that the Adventist story says it does.
It might be nice to see Adventists address the challenges I raise...but in humble honesty...they cannot. At least not by the straight testimony of scripture.
But understanding these covenants, especially The New and Everlasting Covenant, is so important for our spritual and eternal lives.
Silence is all I've ever received on this subject when I've tried to approach it with Adventists...unfortunately.
Keep up the good work David! You have been doing a wonderful job addressing Victor on the SDA2RC blogspot!
God bless all!!!
Hi people,
Sorry, I have been very busy lately and was not able to spend much time blogging.
I'll make just a brief comment concerning the time of Noah (maybe more later if I find the time):
If we consider Genesis 6:5, we see that evil was spreading around on the earth. And we can equate evil with sin (tell me if you disagree). Now, Paul said that if there is no law, there is no sin. So, if these people before the flood were doing evil, they had to do it against a set of laws. So far, the only sins we saw are disobediance (Adam and Eve), lying (the serpent) and killing (Cain). It is interesting to notice that the only clear declaration of a commandment was the one concerning the tree. We see nothing concerning lying or killing. So was lying or killing okay then? We can safely say it was not.
Going back to Genesis 6, the text tells us that the mind of the people was constantly bent on evil. So we can safely assume they were doing all kind of evil things, like direspecting their parents, lying, coveting, stealing, killing, committing adultery... But do we see a declaration from God saying that all of these things were prohibited? No, we don't. But the Bible said that these people were doing evil. So we can assume that there was a set of laws in action. Remember that Paul said that, without laws, there is no sin.
All of this to say that we have to be coherent in our reasoning. Yes, we have not seen a commandment where God says "Remember the Sabbath day" so far, but we haven't seen a commandment saying "Honor your father and mother" or "You shall not commit adultery" either. Based on your reasoning, dishonoring your parents or committing adultery were okay then at the time of Noah. But I doubt that anyone would come up with that idea.
Hi Still,
The answer to the potential confusion in this regard is knowing the difference between "natural law" and "revealed law". The latter is "revealed" to peoples through Scripture, such as ceremonial rites specifically, while the former is "innately" known to mankind in general regardless of time or culture.
St. Paul, in Romans, I believe speaks about this difference:
"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel." Rom. 2:12-16
Please notice that St. Paul makes a definite distinction between the Gentiles "who do not have the law" versus those [Jews] (verse 17) that do. This clearly shows that some of humanity have a "written", "revealed" law (that is, one given by God on stone to Israel), and some of humanity simply has not and never has had access to such a revelation. Yet apparently both "groups" will be judged by God, albeit somewhat differently (verse 12).
cont...
Tertullian, speaking to this premise of a "natural" law, and a written "revealed" law, said:
"But as is congruous with the goodness of God, and with His equity, as the Fashioner of mankind— He gave to all nations the selfsame law, which at definite and stated times He enjoined should be observed, when He willed, and through whom He willed, and as He willed. For in the beginning of the world He gave to Adam himself and Eve a law, that they were not to eat of the fruit of the tree planted in the midst of paradise; but that, if they did contrariwise, by death they were to die. Which law had continued enough for them, had it been kept. For in this law given to Adam we recognise in embryo all the precepts which afterwards sprouted forth when given through Moses; that is, You shall love the Lord your God from your whole heart and out of your whole soul; You shall love your neighbour as yourself; You shall not kill; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; False witness you shall not utter; Honour your father and mother; and, That which is another's, shall you not covet. For the primordial law was given to Adam and Eve in paradise, as the womb of all the precepts of God. In short, if they had loved the Lord their God, they would not have contravened His precept; if they had habitually loved their neighbour— that is, themselves — they would not have believed the persuasion of the serpent, and thus would not have committed murder upon themselves, by falling from immortality, by contravening God's precept; from theft also they would have abstained, if they had not stealthily tasted of the fruit of the tree, nor had been anxious to skulk beneath a tree to escape the view of the Lord their God; nor would they have been made partners with the falsehood-asseverating devil, by believing him that they would be "like God;" and thus they would not have offended God either, as their Father, who had fashioned them from clay of the earth, as out of the womb of a mother; if they had not coveted another's, they would not have tasted of the unlawful fruit.
Therefore, in this general and primordial law of God, the observance of which, in the case of the tree's fruit, He had sanctioned, we recognise enclosed all the precepts specially of the posterior Law, which germinated when disclosed at their proper times. For the subsequent superinduction of a law is the work of the same Being who had before premised a precept; since it is His province withal subsequently to train, who had before resolved to form, righteous creatures. For what wonder if He extends a discipline who institutes it? If He advances who begins? In short, before the Law of Moses, written in stone-tables, I contend that there was a law unwritten, which was habitually understood naturally, and by the fathers was habitually kept." An Answer to the Jews, chapter 2.
David,
Interesting comments. However, I am not sure that we can invoke the natural law here (at least, not entirely). Noah had a relationship with God and was doing what was right in His sight. How did he know God? If he knew God, do we believe he was the only one who had heard of the Lord? I don't think so. At the time, they had only one language and so it was not a barrier to the spread of information. Also, let's not forget that all the people were the descendants of Adam. Adam lived 930 years and the Flood occurred about 1,656 years after his creation (you can calculate that number by using the genealogy and the births in Genesis 5). So it means that the Flood happened 726 years after the death of Adam, which is not a time long enough to forget God, above all for people who lived 900+ years. So, it means that people knew God (at least, they heard of Him) but chose not to follow him, save Noah. They knew (or at least, they heard) about His instructions but chose to do otherwise, save Noah.
So it is less about not following the natural law than not following the instructions of God, instructions that Noah knew and obeyed. This is why "Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord" (Genesis 6:8) (if we check Scripture, we will see that those finding favor in the eyes of God are those who obey His commandments).
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