This is a continuation of our ongoing discussion of covenants in the Bible. If you have not already read the first two posts, and their subsequent comments, I suggest that you do so now as this will give the adequate context to know where we currently are at in our discussion.
Basically, a passage of relevant Scripture will be quoted and discussion will ensue as to what is meant in the particular passage. Once "universal" agreement has been reached regarding its meaning, we will then move on to another "Part" of the series with another passage of relevant Scripture.
Everyone is welcome to participate in this exchange. I will ask that anyone participating to please follow these short guidelines, as they will help insure that we all stay on track and remain focused:
1. All discussion will be regarding the Biblical covenants, and what they mean.
2. All discussion will center on the passage under discussion. Please no "jumping" to other passages of Scripture.
3. Once agreement has been reached regarding the passage under discussion, the thread will then be "closed", and we will all move on to the next "Part" in the series.
4. All quoting from commentaries/books must be short enough to fit within a single comment.
5. Everyone will keep their comments to one single comment only. No "multi-part" comments allowed from anyone. The reason for this is that short comments help to maintain focus better.
Any and all comments not adhering to these "rules" will be deleted by the moderator (me).
Covenants in Scripture Part 3
Genesis 15
1After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2And Abram said, LORD God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
7And he said unto him, I am the LORD that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees, to give thee this land to inherit it.
8And he said, LORD God, whereby shall I know that I shall inherit it?
9And he said unto him, Take me an heifer of three years old, and a she goat of three years old, and a ram of three years old, and a turtledove, and a young pigeon.
10And he took unto him all these, and divided them in the midst, and laid each piece one against another: but the birds divided he not.
11And when the fowls came down upon the carcases, Abram drove them away.
12And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him.
13And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
14And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
15And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
16But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
17And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces.
18In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
19The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
20And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
21And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Sunday, October 18, 2009
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
4 comments:
Hello all,
Well, I guess I'll post a few of my thoughts to get this section started. I am glad to see Still is back! Hi Still!
Still and David posted some excellent discussion in the Noah covenant section regarding laws and commands from God up to that point in time. While there are no direct commands from God other than the ones pointed out, Still makes some good reasoned points regarding laws or commands being present even if not documented. And David made excellent points about Natural Law. In other threads Lady Dragon has made excellent points that codified laws existed which pre-date the 10 commandments and also contain much of what was revealed in the 10 commandments.
I think this discussion is both important, and pertinent, to our discussion of the covenants, particularly in the 2,000 plus years of history before Moses received the 10 commandments from God. So please feel free to continue that discussion in this section, if that is agreeable with David (who gets preferential treatment on his own blog just as he does on everybody else's ;)
But my first two cents:
20 generations from Adam, approximately 2,000 years, we find God making a covenant with Abram.
Here with Abram, in the progession of revelation and salvation history of God's interactions with mankind, we find the covenant made expanding to a larger group of people...Abram and his tribe which included many families, slaves, and others.
God promises to make Abraham the chief, or head, of many peoples, and to give them a land in which to live which will be their permanent dwelling place. He promises that He will be their God and that they who enter into this covenant will be His people.
This is the first place where God establishes a "people". The only command I see here, and correct me if I'm missing something, is for each person in Abraham's tribe to be circumcised. And God promises to be their God and give them a land in which to live permanently.
Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said: "I am God the Almighty. Walk in my presence and be blameless. 2 Between you and me I will establish my covenant, and I will multiply you exceedingly." 3 When Abram prostrated himself, God continued to speak to him: 4 "My covenant with you is this: you are to become the father of a host of nations. 5 No longer shall you be called Abram; your name shall be Abraham, for I am making you the father of a host of nations. 6 I will render you exceedingly fertile; I will make nations of you; kings shall stem from you.
7 I will maintain my covenant with you and your descendants after you throughout the ages as an everlasting pact, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. 8 I will give to you and to your descendants after you the land in which you are now staying, the whole land of Canaan, as a permanent possession; and I will be their God." 9 God also said to Abraham: "On your part, you and your descendants after you must keep my covenant throughout the ages. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you that you must keep: every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 Circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and that shall be the mark of the covenant between you and me. 12 Throughout the ages, every male among you, when he is eight days old, shall be circumcised, including houseborn slaves and those acquired with money from any foreigner who is not of your blood. 13 Yes, both the houseborn slaves and those acquired with money must be circumcised. Thus my covenant shall be in your flesh as an everlasting pact. 14 If a male is uncircumcised, that is, if the flesh of his foreskin has not been cut away, such a one shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."
To follow the template in the earlier sections:
1. Covenant Mediator = Abraham
2. Covenant Role = Chief/leader
3. Covenant Form = Tribe
4. Covenant Sign = Circumcision
Let the fun begin!
God bless all!!!
Hi Mike,
I noticed that you "jumped" to chapter 17. What about chapter 15? Should the information there be considered before we consider chapter 17's data? Should they be considered as a whole? Should we simply consider chapter 15's data as perhaps incomplete, and just go ahead and deal with chapter 17? I'm just trying to "feel out" how we should deal with this. Chapter 15 has God making a covenant with Abram (not Abraham yet), and it appears that the "sign" of this covenant is a "son" for Abram. What do you think about this?
Thanks, and blessings to you!
Hi David,
Sorry about jumping ahead like that...I guess I was a little excited:)...and that is why I always ask you all to point out those things I know I'm going to miss.
I am very comfortable looking at chapter 15. I think it does provide the background for The covenant with Abram/Abraham.
However, I do not see where the sign of this covenant is provided in chapter 15. The covenant referred to in verse 18 is God's promise that Abram's "descendants" will receive the land designated in verses 18-21.
But it is definitely good to stay here in chapter 15, because there are some features that seem to appear consistently in each covenant so far, and will be very important in those covenants leading up to, and including the New and Everlasting Covenant.
1. God initially calling the one whom He intends to use to mediate the covenant.
2. The response of the one called by God to mediate the covenant.
3. A promise made by God as the reward/benefit/goal of the covenant.
4. An act or expression of faith, made by people, in the promise of God as they enter the covenant.
5. What else am I missing here...anyone, anyone,...Bueler?
So, so far in chapter 15 we are looking at a covenant God makes with Abram that his descendants will occupy a land given to them by God.
And this is where Abram's faith begins to kick in, because Abram doesn't have any kids, and evidently the prospects to have some weren't looking too good. But God promised Abram that his very own offspring will be his heir in verse 4.
I'm not seeing a son as the sign of this covenant in this chapter, but a son is definitely promised by God...but talk to me, I'm always willing to learn!
So what do you, and everyone else, have to say or think about or add to what I've said above? I hope I didn't do too much jumping in this post..and thank you David for bringing much needed discipline to my ramblings...you know my tendencies!:)
God bless all!!!
Hi David,
Yeah...I'm reading chapter 15 again and thinking about the promised "son" being a sign of the covenant between God and Abram here, to make his descendants heirs of the land God is to give them.
I think this is disticnt from the sign of circumcision later.
So talk to me!!
God bless all!!!
Post a Comment