Monday, May 4, 2009

Prophetic Time

Back in 2005, when I was first coming out of Adventism, I typed up a paper attempting to explain how the Adventist time calculations for 1844 were incorrect. Now I am not a mathematician by any stretch of the imagination, so if you find any miscalculations on my part please let me know.

The 2300 days
It is taught that the prophetic reckoning of the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14 ending in 1844 AD is correct according to the Adventist method of figuring the time. In fact Ellen G. White, referring to the time prophecy of Daniel 8:14, clearly states that upon this Scripture more than any other stands the entire Adventist faith. Notice what she says:

"The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: "Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Daniel 8:14. These had been familiar words to all believers in the Lord's soon coming. By the lips of thousands was this prophecy repeated as the watchword of their faith. All felt that upon the events therein foretold depended their brightest expectations and most cherished hopes. These prophetic days had been shown to terminate in the autumn of 1844." The Great Controversy page 408

Please notice that she as well as every other Adventist believer understood this Scripture to have been fulfilled in 1844 AD. In fact, many of Ellen White's visions were based upon an understanding that the prophetic days of Daniel 8:14 did indeed end in 1844. This understanding has been taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church for over 160 years. And Mrs. White clearly states that this understanding is pivotal to the Adventist Church's existence. After all, if nothing actually happened in 1844, then the Adventists simply made a mistake and there would be no reason for the existence of a Seventh-day Adventist Church. It is important to understand that the Adventist Pioneers, including Ellen White, never taught that they had made a mistake; although William Miller, the original promoter of this teaching, as well as others did admit that they had been mistaken concerning this. In fact, the Adventist Pioneers and Ellen White taught consistently that God had revealed to them the truth on this subject and that if anyone questioned its validity they would be going against the plain truth revealed to them by God. This attitude has been perpetuated by the current Seventh-day Adventist Church to the point that they finally made this teaching a fundamental belief that has to be believed in order for a person to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist (Please see the end of this paper for proof of this).

Anyone who has attended a Seventh-day Adventist Daniel/Revelation seminar has probably been told that the 1,260 days of Revelation 12:6 and the forty two months of Revelation 11:2 and 13:5 all equal 3 ½ years. This is because it is widely known that in the Bible a year is reckoned as 360 days instead of 365 as in the Gregorian calendar that we currently use today. If you simply multiply 42 months by 30 days in each month you will end up with 1,260 days. If you divide 1,260 by 360 days in one year you will end up with 3 ½ years. This is simple math and logic as anyone can see. But when it comes to Daniel 8:14 and the 2,300 days, it will be shown that they, the Adventists, suddenly make a switch in the figuring of the prophetic time to make it fit into their prophetic scenario. The way they do this is instead of figuring the 2,300 days according to the Biblical reckoning of 360 days in one year; they simply reckon it according to the method of 365 days in a year according to the Gregorian calendar. Now let's see why this is significant.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church takes the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14 and converts them to years and then begins these years at 457 B.C. and runs them all the way through to 1844 AD. In this paper we will not discuss whether or not it is right to convert days in prophecies to literal years, all we are concerned with right now is seeing whether or not the Seventh-day Adventist reckoning is correct with their current teaching. The prophetic time of Daniel 8:14 is Biblical time which means that it should be figured according to a Biblical year and not according to the Gregorian year. This is simply remaining true to Biblical interpretation. There are 5 extra days each year in the Gregorian year over that of the Biblical year including 1 extra day every four years for the leap years. Since the Biblical year is 5 days less than the Gregorian year one must multiply 2,300 years by 5 and this will give you the correct number of extra days to figure. The result is 11,500 extra days in 2,300 years of time. 11,500 divided by 360 days in a Biblical year equals 31.94 less years to figure in. In addition to this, every 4 years is a leap year, so to figure the amount of extra days for the leap years you simply take the 2,300 years and divide them by 4 and this will give you the exact number of extra days for all the leap years in that period of time. The additional number of days is 575. Now 575 divided by 360 days in a Biblical year equals 1.5972 less years to figure in. If you add 31.94 and 1.5972 to find out how many years less to figure into the time reckoning, the result is 33.5372 less years. So the 2,300 years according to Biblical reckoning is approximately 33 ½ years shorter than the Gregorian calendar reckoning. Why is this important? Because it throws off the Adventist time prophecy of 1844 by at least 33 ½ years putting it around 1810 instead of 1844. Now the question is: Why Does the Seventh-day Adventist Church switch the method of how to reckon Biblical time from the true way that they clearly teach in their meetings with the 1,260 days and the forty two months equaling 3 ½ years to the unbiblical way with the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14 equaling 1844 AD? Why do they teach that the 1,260 days and the forty two months obviously equal 3 ½ years because each year according to the Biblical reckoning is exactly 360 days long, yet they do not apply the same teaching to the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14 which is also prophetic time? This is inconsistent and misleading.

It might be said that the Gregorian calendar was not established until the 1500's AD, and that each year up to that point was reckoned as 360 days. It is true that the Gregorian calendar was established in the 1500's, however, this does not give the Seventh-day Adventist Church a way out of their dilemma. There is approximately 300 years between the time of the establishment of the Gregorian calendar and the year 1844. If you simply multiply 300 years by 5 extra days per year you will end up with approximately 1500 extra days to figure in. 1500 divided by 360 days per Biblical year equals 4.16 less years. And if you take the 300 years of time and divide that by 4 you will find out how many leap year days to figure in. There are approximately 75 extra days because of the leap years and that equals .25 less years. The grand total would be approximately 4 years less to figure in which would place the termination of the time prophecy around 1840 and not 1844. No matter how you slice up the time it will not fit according to Biblical time reckoning. And after all, that is how the time prophecy of Daniel 8:14 should be figured, according to the Biblical year not the Gregorian year.

Jesus said "Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up" Matthew 15:13. God created mathematics and He created reasoning in us. If He shows us through the things that He Himself has provided for us that the reckoning of the time by the Seventh-day Adventist Church is incorrect; that Ellen White, the Pioneers, and the rest of the early Adventists were wrong; then perhaps He is simply uprooting a plant that He did not actually plant. I know that this may be a difficult saying for most, but when you take an honest look at the evidence what other conclusion can one make? So much in Adventism hinges on 1844: The Church's reason for being, Ellen White's inspiration, Jesus moving from the Holy place to the Most Holy Place, God's hand in the 1844 movement, etc. If you have never given this a second look, please do so now and don't continue to allow "the wool to be pulled over your eyes". All you have to do is follow the Apostle Paul's counsel when he said "Prove all things and hold fast to that which is good" 1Thessalonians 5:21.

The following quote is proof that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is perpetuating the myth of 1844 authoritatively among its membership as anyone wanting to subscribe to the Adventist faith must profess belief in this teaching:

"There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2,300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry." Taken from "Seventh-day Adventists Believe...A Biblical Exposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines" Fundamental Beliefs # 23.

The following are statements taken from the Seventh-day Adventist Church Manual explaining that it is necessary to express belief in the fundamental teachings of the Church in order to be considered a Seventh-day Adventist:

"The minister's work is not completed until he has thoroughly instructed the candidates, and they are familiar with and committed to all fundamental beliefs and related practices of the church and are prepared to assume the responsibilities of church membership. Churches should insist on the application of this as a guiding principle in the reception of new members." page 28 under the heading "Ministers Thoroughly to Instruct Candidates Previous to Baptism".

"Candidates for baptism or those being received into fellowship by profession of faith shall affirm their acceptance of the doctrinal beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church in the presence of the church or other properly appointed body." page 30 under the heading "Baptismal Vow".


The following is proof that one may be disfellowshipped from the Seventh-day Adventist Church for simply not believing in the fundamental beliefs as taught by the Church or for teaching against those same beliefs. Notice what the Seventh-day Adventist Church Manual says about this and ask yourself if this is truly founded in Christ's spirit of love:

"When grievous sins are involved disciplinary measures must be taken. There are two ways by which this may be done:

1. By a vote of censure.

2. By a vote to disfellowship." page 167 under the heading "Administering Discipline


"Among the grievous sins for which members shall be subject to church discipline are the following:

1. Denial of faith in the fundamentals of the gospel and in the cardinal doctrines of the church or teaching doctrines contrary to the same." Page 168-69 under the heading "Reasons for Which Members Shall Be Disciplined
".

Please see page 169 for the complete list of offenses as there are a total of 11.

If the Seventh-day Adventist Church is truly of Christ's spirit then they will consider the evidence presented in this paper and either admit that they have been wrong for the past 160 years; that Ellen White and her related visions are incorrect; or they will respond with a very reasonable, logical explanation as to why their teaching of the 2,300 days of Daniel 8:14 is indeed correct and therefore the evidence presented in this paper is incorrect.

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

Great post! I have done a similar paper and have the same conclusion. Applying this to the 1260 days (which is also calculated by the Gregorian Calendar) presents a similar dilemma to their identification of the Catholic Church with the Beast of Revelation, as the prophecy would end approx. 17.5 years earlier than 1798.

As for the gregorian calendar not being created until later, it is certainly true. However, the Julian Calendar began it's use before Christ and has a similar length year to the Gregorian. Either way, the prophecy is clearly indefensible based on their prophetic timelines and their application of the 360 day year to these timelines.

Thanks

The Lady Dragon said...

Dave:

That is a very well done paper, as was Brandon's. Would either of you fellows like to post your math on SDA Issues?

Marsha

David Atkins said...

Hi Brandon,

Thanks for the words of affirmation. I wasn't sure if my calculations were precise, but since you say that you came to the same conclusions, I feel better about it. Though, I guess it is possible that we are both wrong ;p.

I didn't even begin considering this until after a friend of mine told me that the time reckoning Adventists use did not add up. He had to literally explain what he meant at least 3 to 4 times IN A ROW(!) before I finally got his point! Guess I had those "Adventist blinders" on something bad.

David Atkins said...

Hi Marsha,

Glad you liked it. I personally don't mind if my article gets posted on sda issues. By the way, what is the address for sda issues?

Thanks!

David Atkins said...

And by the way Brandon & Marsha,

WELCOME to the blog!

God bless you both!

Brandon said...

The address is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SDAIssues/

You will need to join the group.. its a unique place.. you will find it interesting ;)

Still said...

Sorry David but you are making a mistake in your calculations. In short, you are mixing prophetic units of time with real units of time in the middle of your calculations!. You cannot do that. In the prophetic time, there is not leap years, nor months of 29 days... No, all the months are considered as having 30 days. Period. This is why, as you said it yourself, we have:

42 (prophetic months) x 30 ( prophetic days) = 1260 prophetic days.

and

3.5 (prophetic years) x 360 (prophetic days) = 1260 prophetic days as well.

So when doing calculations, don't mix prophetic time and real time by doing for example:

3.5 (prophetic years) x 365 (real time days ) = wrong calculation (as prophetic time is mixed up with real time in the middle of the calculation. A prophetic year is not made of 365 real days but 360 prophetic days).

Then, when the calculation is done, the conversion can be done. For example, when we arrive to the result of 1260 prophetic days, we can make the conversion. If we use the principle that 1 prophetic day equals 1 real year then when can say that 1260 prophetic days represent 1260 real years.

So, to conclude, the steps to follow are as such:
1) calculations in one system of time (either prophetic time or real time without mixing the both of them)
2) then conversion (after the calculations have been made) to go from one system to the other (from prophetic time to real time, or vice versa).

When following these steps, no mistake is made.

David Atkins said...

Hi Still,

Thank you for the explanation. Something I am curious about though. Where in Scripture are we told that your way of understanding the prophetic times is the way they should be understood?

In the interest of Sola Scriptura, I think that it should be explicitly taught from the Scriptures alone.

Any thoughts?

Still said...

David,

It depends on what you are talking about now. When you speak of interpreting prophetic times are you referring to:
- the issue of knowing how long is a prophetic month or year?
- the issue of knowing if we can apply the day-for-a-year principle?
- or the issue of knowing if we can mix up prophetic units of time with real units of time in our calculation without any other considerations?

David Atkins said...

Don't worry Still, I am making a new post that will explain in more detail what I mean. Please feel free to comment there.

Lexaholic said...

Still,
I'll try to explain what David is saying from a different approach.

Let's first assume that the 2300 day prophecy began in 457 B.C.

Let's also assume that the year/day rule is used.

Biblical time is 360 days per year. So a biblical year is 360 days.

So we have 2300 BIBLICAL years of time to consider starting from 457 B.C.

2300years x 360days per each year does not reach 1844

What that amounts to is 828000 days and those days end somewhere around 1810 as David has already pointed out.

Still said...

Lehaholic,

You are mistaken. A biblical year is also 365 days because a year is based on the sun. It is when used in a prophecy that a year may be 360 days long.

Anonymous said...

Please consider this: You have written just a very short comentaries about the adventist interpretation about 2300 days maybe because you haven learned a little about that position. Now, you have putted in this blog som videos like "Seventh Day Adventism: The Spirit Behind the Church". Let me tell you that every comment you can hear in that documentary has been answered in full lenght, for example you can read this book: "Seventh-day Adventism - The Spirit Behind the Church. Truth or Fiction?" written by Bob Pickle.
Any way, we have contacted some of the people who speakes on the video telling them that we have responses about their simple conclusions but they don't want to see them. My answer: Why? They have wanted a debate with adventist who like to defend their faith, and some of us have acepted the debate but now the don't want. I insist, Why? Personally, some of those people have told us we are idiots. Is that the Christ spirit. By the way, we received that answer after we send them a written response. Let's consider that we are making a videowhere we are goint to respond all the critics and we are goint to analize too their teologic position.

It's very easy to watch a video where you can heat a lot of critics but without consider every argument in their main context.

The video where Walter Martin debate William Johnson:

One thing is that debate. If you have a profesor or theologian who cannot answer very well to some critics, could you consider your teologian positions as false? Do you depends of a teologian, proffesor, etc.?

By the way, talking again about adventist teologian position about 2300 days, why don't you mention the best information we have in our church, as the Daniel and Apocalypse Symposium? Now if you say you know those books,that's not enough because you have to consider their comments. It's very curious that those and another numerous books have responded every critics like yours. Am I saying that I depend just of those books? Now, I am just telling you that consider that information.

I will not to put any comment who consider every argument you have written about 2300 days because I've had a numerous of experiencies where the people do not answer to my comments with sincerity, they don't answer to my critics and they are just say what I write is not biblical but they don't day why. I've insisted to them why. I've insisted to them they have to respond every argument but they don't do it. I'm not saying you would do that. But this blogs seems something like that.

God can bless you.

Atte: Jan Maikol Romanini